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(anonymised), 22-05-1992 00:10


22-05-1992 00:10



testimony record

Q: What time have you started work today?

A: 11 PM.

Q: And what exactly did you do after arrival to (anonymised)?

A: We unpacked our equipment in the parking and started the work.

Q: You started at 4th floor?

A: No, I started at 3rd and later moved up.

Q: You always start at 3rd floor?

A: Yes, I vacuum 3rd floor and clean the stairs on the way up. When I finish the 4th floor I ride lift down to the lobby.

Q: Have you seen anyone while you were cleaning?

A: No, all the offices were empty.

Q: What time have you arrived at 4th floor?

A: Few minutes before I found the the body.

Q: So it was around 23:40?

A: Yes, something like that.

Q: And office 412 was first one you cleaned on the the 4th floor?

A: Yes.

Q: Why?

A: Because it is the closest to the stairs.

Q: You usually start cleaning 4th floor around that time?

A: No, I was a little late.

Q: Why?

A: I had to clean something off the stairs.

Q: What was it exactly?

A: I don't know, but I had problems with washing it off. Something white...

Q: So how late were you at 4th floor?

A: About 10 or 15 minutes.

Q: And you did not heard the shots being fired?

A: No.

Q: Were the doors to office 412 closed when you arrived?

A: Yes.

Q: So what did you do when you entered 412?

A: I started to vacuum the outer office, then I moved to the corridor between the offices.

Q: You noticed something unusual?

A: Not until I reached the door to office...

Q: Were they closed?

A: No, they were wide open, but the lights inside the office were off.

Q: You entered the office?

A: I noticed something strange on the floor, so I switched the lights on.

Q: Have you touched anything inside the office?

A: No, just the light switch.

Q: How about the door to the other office?

A: They were closed.

Q: Have you noticed anything unusual apart from the body?

A: No.

Q: Did you knew (anonymised)?

A: I've seen him in the office working late.

Q: Did you ever spoke to him?

A: Not really, just tried not to disturb him too much.

Q: Have you ever met anyone else in the 412 offices?

A: Yes, I've met the other guy, (anonymised).

Q: Did you spoke to him?

A: Yeah, he's quite chatty.

Q: When was the last time you met him in the office?

A: Few times in last 2 months.

Q: How often do you clean the offices in (anonymised)?

A: Twice a week.

Q: Is it possible that someone went passed you on the stairs while you were cleaning them?

A: No, I would notice.

Q: How about the lift? Was anyone using it while you were on 3rd or 4th floor?

A: No. The lift is not exactly quiet, so I would notice.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 00:20


22-05-1992 00:20



testimony record

Q: (anonymised) found the body?

A: Yes.

Q: How long does he work for you?

A: About 9 months now.

Q: Does he always clean the 4th floor?

A: Yes, 3rd and 4th.

Q: Why only those two?

A: Three people work on the building at the same time, (anonymised) takes care of the top two floors, another one cleans the 1st and 2nd floor, while the third is taking care of the lobby and front entrance.

Q: How long does it take them to clean one floor in (anonymised)?

A: Usually we try to finish floor within 30 to 40 minutes.

Q: Did (anonymised) told you that he was held up in the stairs?

A: Yes, he was cleaning something on the stairs.

Q: Have you seen the spillage on the stairs?

A: No, I was downstairs all the time.

Q: Did you see him cleaning it?

A: No, he told me that later, when he came down after discovering the body.

Q: Did any of the other two cleaners saw anything unusual?

A: Not that I know of.

Q: How often do you clean here?

A: Twice a week, on Fridays and Tuesdays.

Q: Always during the night?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you have keys to the offices in the building?

A: No, the cleaners take the keys from the night porter.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 00:25


22-05-1992 00:25



testimony record

Q: What time have you started work today in (anonymised)?

A: About 10 PM, as usual.

Q: Have you noticed anything unusual?

A: No.

Q: What floors were you working?

A: First and second.

Q: Where have you started? On first?

A: Yes.

Q: And you used stairs to climb to second?

A: Yes.

Q: What time was it?

A: I don't know. About 10:30 I guess, maybe few minutes past.

Q: Have you seen anyone on the stairs?

A: No. Only (anonymised)...

Q: You met him on the stairs?

A: Not really, I've heard him. We usually get around the same times to the stairs, so I've heard him vacuum. And when I finished my part of the stairs I've heard him swearing while he was scrubbing something.

Q: But you haven't seen him?

A: No, he was somewhere higher than second floor.

Q: And you did not heard the shots being fired?

A: No.

Q: Have you heard anyone using the lift while you were cleaning the building?

A: No.

Q: Do you have keys to the offices on higher floors?

A: No, each of us gets only the keys he needs to access the offices he will be cleaning.

Q: Do you always clean those two floors?

A: Usually yes.

Q: But not always?

A: No, once or twice I was cleaning the top floors when (anonymised) was sick.

Q: When was it?

A: I don't remember. Six, maybe seven, weeks ago.

Q: Have you ever met anyone from office 412?

A: Yeah, one guy, real chatterbox.

Q: What were you talking?

A: Just small talk.

Q: He was alone?

A: Yeah, he was just leaving the floor when I finished the stairs.

Q: And it was late night?

A: Yeah, as usual, between 11 PM and midnight.

Q: When you cleaned the office 412 that night there wasn't anyone inside?

A: No.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 00:30


22-05-1992 00:30



testimony record

Q: Which part of the building were you cleaning tonight?

A: Ground floor and the lobby.

Q: Have you seen anyone leaving the building or using lift?

A: No.

Q: You were the whole time in the building?

A: Yes.

Q: Did anyone enter the building during that time?

A: No that I know of.

Q: Your boss, (anonymised), was he here all the time?

A: I think so, he usually does.

Q: But have you seen him in the lobby?

A: Yes, he was chatting with the guard.

Q: Do you always clean ground floor?

A: Usually yes.

Q: Have you ever cleaned the top floor in (anonymised)?

A: No.

Q: Have you ever met someone from office 412?

A: I don't think so.

Q: Did you ever stumbled upon anyone leaving the office late?

A: It happens, but rarely.

Q: So you might have met someone from 412?

A: I guess, but people usually just pass as by as we don't exist, so I wouldn't know...

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 00:30


22-05-1992 00:30



testimony record

Q: What time have you started your shift?

A: 6 PM.

Q: Do you always work the night shift?

A: Yes.

Q: Did anyone entered the building from 6 PM to the arrival of the cleaners?

A: Yes, there was one delivery of the parcel about 6:30 PM.

Q: Do you have the parcel?

A: Yes, it's under my desk in the lobby.

Q: And apart from that did someone else came into the building?

A: Not through the main entrance.

Q: And where is the other entrance?

A: The staircase has doors leading to the parking.

Q: And they are open whole day?

A: No, until 5 PM. At 5 PM they are closed by the porter.

Q: So, after 5 PM there isn't a way to enter the building through the parking door?

A: There is, each office has key for that door in case they work late so they could let themselves out.

Q: Have you checked if the doors were closed when you started the shift?

A: Yes, I always do.

Q: And they were closed?

A: Yes.

Q: You were in the lobby the whole time?

A: No, I was doing the rounds at 8 PM and just before 10 PM.

Q: During that time could someone enter through the main entrance?

A: No, the doors were locked the whole time until arrival of the cleaners. I opened it only to take the parcel.

Q: Do you know anyone from office 412?

A: Not really. I noticed they sometimes worked late, once or twice I checked if someone was actually there. You know, to make sure if they just haven't left the lights on and went home.

Q: And was there anyone?

A: Yeah, tall guy.

Q: He was alone?

A: Yeah, he was working on computer in one of the offices.

Q: And you haven't met anyone else from 412?

A: No, I don't think so.

Q: When were you checking on 412 if there was someone inside were the doors to the offices closed?

A: No, the doors to corridor were open.

Q: Do you always make rounds at 8PM and 10PM?

A: Yes, and later at 1 AM and 3 AM.

Q: Why not at midnight?

A: I don't know, that's the company policy. I have to finish the 10 PM round early to let the cleaners in. They always arrive at 10 PM and clean for about 2 hours, so I guess my bosses thought there is no point in making the rounds while the cleaners are in.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 01:25


22-05-1992 01:25



testimony record

Q: When was the last time you spoke to your husband?

A: Before he left the house. I phoned his office around 10:30 PM, but there was no answer.

Q: Did he mentioned that he is gonna work late that day?

A: No, he never did.

Q: You often called him at work?

A: No.

Q: So why did you today?

A: Lately he... We argued a lot. I never knew when he was gonna return home.

Q: What did you argued about?

A: I thought he had an affair.

Q: Why you thought that?

A: He rarely returned home straight from work, even when he sometimes returned early he seemed to be avoiding me. When I asked him where he was or what he was doing he usually just brushed me off that he was working late.

Q: And was he?

A: I don't know. When I sometimes phoned his office all I got was always the answering machine straight away.

Q: Today was the same?

A: No, today the phone just kept ringing, but no one answered.

Q: Did you visit your husband in the office?

A: No, I never was in their office.

Q: Why?

A: I don't know. I never felt the need really.

Q: Was there anything else that was suggesting that he had an affair?

A: Well, our marriage was... Lately he became very secretive, we seemed to live completely separate lives, so I just assumed that he must be seeing someone else.

Q: But if he had an affair do you have any idea who he might have been seeing?

A: No. I don't know. Maybe someone he met at work.

Q: Did your husband had any enemies? Do you know about anyone that might have wanted to kill him or hurt him?

A: No.

Q: Did you, or your husband, ever had firearms?

A: No.

Q: What do you know about your husband's company?

A: Not much. They sell software to customers, but I never was good with computers, so I don't really know anything about the details.

Q: But do you know anything about their financial situation?

A: No, my husband never talked about the company with me.

Q: And what do you do for a living?

A: Now I'm a housewife. I used to work as administrative worker in power plant.

Q: What do you know about people your husband worked with?

A: I've met (anonymised) few times, but I didn't like him. We hardly ever spoke to each other. I know nothing about the others.

Q: Why didn't you like him?

A: I don't know, he seemed a bit... sleazy. You know, at first I thought he was quite nice, but with time I realized he is obnoxious.

Q: Why is that?

A: I don't know. It's just a feeling when he was around that deep inside he is unpleasant person.

Q: Did you husband had a life insurance?

A: I don't know. If he did he never told me that.

Q: Where were you around 10:30 PM yesterday?

A: At home. I've told you I tried to phone my husband around that time.

Q: Is there anyone who can verify that?

A: No, we live alone. We never had any kids.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 08:45


22-05-1992 08:45



testimony record

Q: You had the day shift yesterday?

A: Yes.

Q: What hours do you work?

A: From 6 AM to 5 PM.

Q: You spoke to (anonymised) today?

A: Yes, he told me what happened last night.

Q: Do you know people from 412?

A: Yes, I know (anonymised).

Q: How do you know him?

A: We grew up on same street.

Q: And you still are mates?

A: Maybe not mates, but he sometimes comes down during the day and we catch up.

Q: What can you tell me about him?

A: He's a smooth talker. He used to sell stuff on the market when he was young.

Q: What stuff?

A: Anything - watches, books, car parts - you name it, he knows a guy to get it.

Q: Have you seen him yesterday leaving the building?

A: Yesterday? No, he must have left through the parking exit.

Q: What about (anonymised)? Have you ever met him?

A: Not really. He said "goof morning" or "goodbye" while passing my desk and that's all.

Q: What about their employees?

A: The young one is nice.

Q: (anonymised)?

A: Yes.

Q: What about (anonymised)?

A: Like (anonymised), she hardly spoke to me at all.

Q: Yesterday you locked the parking door?

A: Yes, as usual at 5 PM.

Q: What about the keys the workers have for that door?

A: Each office have one.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 09:15


22-05-1992 09:15



testimony record

Q: When was the last time you spoke with (anonymised)?

A: Yesterday, just before 5 PM.

Q: Where was that?

A: In his office. I was just on my way home, I step by to his office just to say "see you tomorrow" or something like that.

Q: In what mood was he?

A: What do you mean?

Q: Did he seemed worried? Anxious? Happy?

A: It was hard to tell with him. He seemed as usual.

Q: What do you mean "as usual"?

A: Well, he was always rather... standoffish, you know. He spent most days in his office, rarely spoke to the others. He wasn't actually a people-person, that's why he needed me in business.

Q: In what way?

A: (anonymised) was good as software engineer, but he was hopeless in contacts with customers, so he took care of the technical side of the business while I was taking care of marketing and customers.

Q: Did he mentioned he was expecting any visitors later?

A: No.

Q: Where were you yesterday around 10:30 PM?

A: At home.

Q: Can anyone verify it?

A: No, that night I was alone. I never found a woman that would make me change my lifestyle.

Q: How do you mean?

A: Well, we're all men of the world. Let's just say that I just don't get attached to women for long.

Q: Did you ever had a firearm?

A: Me? No!

Q: Do what exactly did you do yesterday?

A: I told you, I was at home.

Q: Whole time?

A: Yes.

Q: So, you left the office about 5 PM, what time have you reached your home?

A: About hour later.

Q: Ok, so what did you do from 6 PM until midnight?

A: I cooked myself a dinner and spent rest of the time in front of the telly.

Q: What was on?

A: I watched news, then... Oh yeah, I've put Goodfellas on VHS.

Q: And then?

A: I don't know. Oh yeah, I fell asleep close to the end and when I woke up it was past the midnight, then I went to bed.

Q: What will happen to the company now that (anonymised) is dead?

A: I will take over his shares, that was the clause in agreement.

Q: What about his wife?

A: What about her?

Q: She won't get anything?

A: No, we were both the owners, now I will run the whole show.

Q: Do you have the knowledge to take over his part of work.

A: No, I will have to hire someone to replace him, but I don't think that will be a problem.

Q: Did you know anything about (anonymised) having an affair?

A: No. Maybe he had, but even then I don't think he would tell me about it.

Q: Why?

A: We kept our personal lives separate from business. But now that you mentioned it perhaps he was seeing someone - that would explain why he was always staying behind in the office.

Q: Do you think he might have an affair with someone from the office?

A: (anonymised) is out of question, he was old enough to be her father. And (anonymised)... I don't know, they were both so uptight it's hard to tell what they really thought.

Q: You don't like (anonymised)?

A: No, it's not that I don't like her, she's just... You know, not someone I would like spend time with. She is good accountant thought. But (anonymised), who knows, maybe there was something between them.

Q: Did (anonymised) often worked late?

A: It happened from time to time.

Q: Was he always alone?

A: What do you mean?

Q: Did anyone, including you, ever worked late?

A: I had to few times when we were starting the business. But lately there wasn't any need for that.

Q: So why did he stayed late?

A: His work was different - sometimes he had to fix something and it was urgent, so he did worked late.

Q: What about (anonymised) or (anonymised)?

A: I think (anonymised) was working late yesterday, but I don't know how long. The secretary never stayed late.

Q: Who has the keys to your office?

A: We all have. Also the porter downstairs have the keys to all the offices in the building.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 09:30


22-05-1992 09:30



testimony record

Q: When did last time spoke to (anonymised)?

A: Yesterday, when I was leaving the office.

Q: How did he seemed to you?

A: Normal. Nothing unusual.

Q: How do you mean?

A: Well, he had his quirks. He always seemed preoccupied with something and lived in his own world.

Q: What do you mean "preoccupied"?

A: Most of the time he spend in his office behind closed doors, but even if he stepped into front office he seemed to be miles away.

Q: Did he mentioned he was expecting any visitors later?

A: No.

Q: How long have you been working in (anonymised)?

A: Two years.

Q: And do you like that work?

A: Yes, (anonymised) is funny, they pay well enough, so...

Q: And did you liked (anonymised)?

A: He was nice, but... I don't know how to explain it. Distant?

Q: So you were never really close?

A: No, we hardly ever spoke to me, and if he did it was usually only work related conversations.

Q: How about (anonymised)?

A: She is very strict and rather stiff, but I'll get by. She doesn't bother me much during the day.

Q: Did you ever had a firearm?

A: No, never.

Q: Do you know anyone who would want to harm or kill (anonymised). Do he had any enemies?

A: I wouldn't know. He hardly ever spoke to me.

Q: Where were you last night around 10:30 PM?

A: I was out with friends.

Q: Where exactly?

A: We went to a bar (anonymised) and we spent there whole evening. We left some time after midnight.

Q: Can anyone verify it?

A: You can ask (anonymised), we were together whole time.

Q: How does the answering machine work in the office?

A: When we finish the work I switch off the board and from that moment all incoming calls go straight into answering machine and all the outgoing calls are blocked.

Q: And you switch it on in the morning?

A: Yes.

Q: And yesterday you switched the board off?

A: I thinks so.

Q: Can you check?

A: Hmm... It's on. Perhaps I forgot yesterday.

Q: So yesterday the incoming calls would not go to answering machine?

A: No.

Q: Is it possible that (anonymised) would switch it on the board when you left.

A: Yes, he knew how to do it.

Q: Do you have the keys to 412 office?

A: Yes, we all have.

Q: What about key to the door that lead to parking?

A: It should be in my desk.

Q: Can you check if it is?

A: Hmm... No, it's gone. Perhaps (anonymised) took it last night.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 09:45


22-05-1992 09:45



testimony record

Q: When did last time spoke to (anonymised)?

A: Yesterday, when I was leaving the office about 4:30 PM.

Q: So you left half an hour later that (anonymised) and (anonymised)?

A: Yes.

Q: Why?

A: (anonymised) asked me to prepare report and it took longer than I expected.

Q: What kind of report?

A: Last month balance.

Q: How did he seemed to you?

A: I haven't noticed anything unusual. He was working on something on his computer. I left the papers on his desk and left.

Q: Did he mentioned he was expecting any visitors later?

A: No, he didn't.

Q: What were the papers?

A: They were the last month figures.

Q: And are they still on his desk?

A: I think I saw them on the desk where I left them.

Q: How long have you been working in (anonymised)?

A: About two years.

Q: Did he often asked for such report?

A: No, it was the second time he did.

Q: When was the first?

A: Two months ago.

Q: Was there anything unusual about last months figures?

A: No, everything seemed in order. We make profits.

Q: Were you close with (anonymised)?

A: No. I don't think anyone was in the office. (anonymised) was rather a loner, he kept everything to himself.

Q: Where were you yesterday around 10:30 PM?

A: At home.

Q: What were you doing in the evening?

A: I had dinner and later watched TV.

Q: What was on TV?

A: "Jake and the Fatman". Later I watched news and went to bed.

Q: Can anyone verify this.

A: Yes, my mother.

Q: You live with your mother?

A: Yes, I have to take care of her after my father died few years ago. She has problems with walking, so...

Q: Did you ever owned a firearm?

A: No.

Q: Do you have the keys to office 412?

A: Yes. Each staff member had one.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 10:30


22-05-1992 10:30



testimony record

Q: Where were you last night?

A: We were out.

Q: And who are "we"?

A: Me, (anonymised) and couple of girls I work with.

Q: And what were you doing?

A: We went to a bar, had some drinks, had some laughs.

Q: Which bar?

A: (anonymised).

Q: What time you arrived there?

A: 7:30 PM I guess.

Q: What time you left the bar?

A: I don't know, I was a bit tipsy when we were leaving.

Q: But can you give some estimate?

A: I guess it was some time after midnight.

Q: And (anonymised) was with you the whole time?

A: Yes. As far as I remember.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 12:20


22-05-1992 12:20



testimony record

Q: Your daughter was home last night?

A: Yes.

Q: Whole time?

A: Yes.

Q: What time she returned home?

A: About 6 PM.

Q: And you were with her whole time?

A: Yes.

Q: What were you doing?

A: We had dinner and later watched TV.

Q: What was on?

A: We always watch "Jake and the Fatman" on Thursdays.

Q: And then?

A: Then I went to bed. I have problems with my back and can't stay up for long.

Q: What time you went to bed?

A: Soon after the show ended, 8 PM I think.

Q: And after 8 PM your daughter was at home whole time?

A: Yes.

Q: How can you be so sure since you were in bed?

A: I would hear her driving away.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 14:45


22-05-1992 14:45



testimony record

Q: Do you know (anonymised)?

A: Yes, I have meeting with him on Monday.

Q: I'm afraid he won't make it - he was killed last night.

A: Killed?

Q: Yes. He phoned you yesterday.

A: Yeah, we spoke yesterday.

Q: Why he contacted you?

A: To set up a meeting. On Monday he was suppose to sign a lease on office space.

Q: Office space?

A: Yeah, he hired me to find him office somewhere downtown.

Q: When he hired you?

A: Few weeks ago.

Q: And you found him the office?

A: Yes.

Q: Where?

A: {adres_6}.

Q: Why he needed the office?

A: I don't know. He gave me instructions what kind of location he is looking for, how big, what is his spending limit and that's it.

Q: And what were the instructions?

A: Small office for one person with reception area and room for meetings with customers. It was important that it would be somewhere downtown.

Q: And he visited the office you have found?

A: Yes, we went there couple of days ago. We had appointment on Monday to sign the lease.

Q: And you have no idea what he was planning to do in the office?

A: No, sorry. It was hard to guess what he was thinking, he didn't say much.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 16:00


22-05-1992 16:00



testimony record

Q: Do you know (anonymised)?

A: No.

Q: You spoke to him yesterday.

A: Have I?

Q: He called you around 1 PM.

A: Ok.

Q: Do you recall the conversation?

A: Not really. I have dozens of calls every day, I can't remember all of them.

Q: So it was a business call?

A: Yeah, yesterday I had few calls around 1 PM, all of them about the office furniture and office equipment.

Q: He might have mentioned the {adres_6} location.

A: Sorry, doesn't ring a bell.

Q: So if he spoke to you yesterday it must have been about the office furniture or equipment?

A: Yeah.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 22:00


22-05-1992 22:00



testimony record

Q: You had shift last night?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know (anonymised) or (anonymised)?

A: No.

Q: Have you noticed yesterday four girls drinking in the bar until around midnight or past midnight?

A: I don't know, there were many people here last night.

Q: They said they spent few hours here.

A: I can't say that I noticed anyone particular last night.

Q: How about your waitresses?

A: I don't know. Ask (anonymised), she was working yesterday until midnight.

(anonymised), 22-05-1992 22:20


22-05-1992 22:20



testimony record

Q: You worked yesterday around midnight?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know (anonymised) or (anonymised)?

A: I know (anonymised), she comes here from time to time.

Q: Have you seen her here yesterday?

A: Yes.

Q: Was she with someone?

A: Yeah, they sat at the corner table.

Q: Do you remember who was with her?

A: No, three girls, I don't know them.

Q: Would you recognize them?

A: No, I don't think so. There were many customers here yesterday.

Q: But do you remember if they sat together the whole time?

A: No idea. I think so, but I didn't have time to keep the track of all people.

Q: Do you remember when the girls left?

A: Yeah, it was just before 1 AM. I remember because (anonymised) was rather loud when they were leaving.

Q: But when they were leaving there were four of them?

A: Yes.